Friday, March 07, 2008

This is very sad

From here:
Hamas claims deadliest attack in Israel in 2 years
By Adam Entous and Joseph Nasr

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Hamas Islamists who control the Gaza Strip claimed responsibility on Friday for the shooting of eight students in a Jewish seminary in Jerusalem, the most lethal Palestinian attack in Israel in two years
There is nothing but condemnation for this. Not only have innocent students been killed, it has also set back the chance of a lasting peace enormously. It makes us realize that there is suffering on both sides of the conflict.

However, it in no way should justify unleashing once again the guns, jets, tanks and soldiers against the people of Gaza. Please, let us mourn for the innocent on both sides.


Colin H said...

You are wrong. The only thing that hamas and the palis understand is violence. Evidence is here in what they just did! Once again they have to be taught a lesson. They complain about innocent people being killed but have no problem whatsoever doing it themselves. Let Israel finally unleash its fury and kill them all!!!!!!

Felix Grant said...

Dear dear ... Colin H, please, where is the evidence that Hamas (or anyone else) are "taught a lesson" by violence unleashed against the population around them?

Such "lessons" have been meted out on both sides for sixty years - and the only thing that comes of it is the revenge reflex you are exhibiting, amplified in a feedback loop.

I spent years in that area, and I never saw a retaliation make an attacker decide to stop. On the contrary, a retaliation generates a whole new set of people Palestinian or Isra'eli - it makes no difference) who abandon their attempts to live a normal life in favour of revenge of their own.

The only glimmer of hope in this whole sad mess is that Olmert and Abbas are still saying that they will continue peace talks. Your sad rage is part of the problem, not a solution.

Colin H said...

Felix, just because you lived there does not make you the resident expert. Have you heard hamas say they want to live in peace with Israel? I thought not... their charter says that Israel must be destroyed. Do you have a defense for that item? If you think that they want peace you are mistaken. All they want is to take over the whole region. Tell me what they have done with all the "Aid Money" they have been you see food on the tables, no you see guns and rockets in their hands. You have to face reality here, but clearly you do not want to. They complain when they say the "innocent" are killed, yet they had no issue with walking into a seminary and killing the innocent...what is your answer here?

Colin H said...

Come one Felix where is your answer. Strangely silent I see, as you have no rebuttal that will make any sense here at all.

Felix Grant said...

Quite right, Colin H - living there makes me no resident expert. But then, I'm not the one who said, dogmatically, "you are wrong"...

Being there gave me one perspective on the lives of ordinary Isra'elis and Palestinians; there are, of course, others. How did you come to your own perspective on this issue?

I ask again: where is the evidence that violent response to violence ever "taught a lesson" in this context?

As your own question, "Have you heard Hamas say they want to live in peace with Israel?" the answer has to be yes - just after they were elected to power, and were looking to restructure for the long term. See AFP and other news agencies' output from that time. Sadly, the world's response was boycott.

Where is the aid money: mostly in the hospitals and education system (as you can easily check for yourself). The arms are (as on all sides) provided by governments seeking political leverage.

My answer on the seminary killings is the same as Dr C's - that killing of innocents is wrong on both sides ... killing of twenty Isra'elis is wrong, killing of a hundred plus Palestinians is wrong, and two wrongs will never make a right.

You talk about "reality": the reality is that there are, on both sides, many innocent people who just want to live their lives ... and a few on both sides who want to keep the killing going. This is an aspect of reality which I discovered by being there, but it's also a commonsense conclusion which you can come to just by looking at human beings around you.

When you said in your first comment "kill them all!!!!!!", you are displaying exactly the attitude which you condemn in a minority of Palestinians.

Finally - I'm sorry that you felt I kept you waiting for a response. Not because I had no reply (as you see above) but because I have a life to live and generally only stop by here once a day.

Colin H said...

Well, Felix, you will never be swayed to the reality of the players in the conflict.

My perspective comes from the views of old friends that have been in Israel for more than 30 years,my son who is in the IDF, and the displays from muslims that live here in my city. The muslims want to kill all the jews all over the world and that is from their own mouth in those exact terms. There is no mistaking what they are saying.

As an aside, look at all the conflicts in the world...who are the instigators? Muslims, plain and simple, no denying it. Look at the picture of Israel and gaza and the west bank in the eyes of fatah...the whole region is covered in there black and white and green face recognition of Israel at all.

You failed to defend the hamas charter that says Israel must be destroyed. They do not want peace and their leaders have plainly said so. It is you who are ignoring that. And to rely on MSM for your information is laughable. They have been anti-Israel for many many years, preferring to side with the "long suffering" palis, who by the way do not even have the support of their arab brothers, but you have probably heard that before too.

I am sure you have a defense for the killing of Israelis, but support the condemnation of Israel when pali civilians are killed, ignoring the fact that hamas fires rockets from the roofs of schools (that preach the killing of all jews), and from homes where the supposedly peaceful palis say they have no idea that terrorists were among them.

You failed to address the fact that the palis dance in the street when the terrorists kill innocents. What a bunch of civilized people they are. Do you see the Israelis doing this?

Tell me how you can sympathize with this group when they elect terrorists to represent them. It is not a small group that supports them as evidenced by the huge gatherings of 100K plus in the streets waving green flags and chanting death to Israel and death to America.

As I have said before, you get what you get when you vote for the thugs. Hamas won by a majority vote, not a minority vote.

Dr. C said...

Your comments are sad. What will happen if the conflict between Israel and Palestine is ever concluded? Will you feel the same way about the 1.2 Billion Muslims in the World? It seems to me that the mind set that perpetrates the current horror needs to change on both sides. History will sort out (if anyone cares) who is responsible.

I would assume that most people in Israel and in the occupied Palestinian territories would like to just get on with their life. The current impasse will never lead to this situation without major change; and that includes those who are supporting the opposing sides. I'm not holding my breath.

The real tragedy is that we do not have an international organization (i.e. the UN) that is truly capable of moving in and administering a peace. We don't have a viable U.N. because of the fetish of sovereignty in all the major players, not just the U.S. I'm not holidng my breath on this one either. We missed our chance in the 1940's.

Consider reading Felix Grant's post on this at the Growlery:

Felix Grant said...

Colin H - since what you say has almost nothing to do with anything I said, and despite all your challenges you still don't answer the question about evidence that any of these "lessons" work, I think perhaps we ought to leave Dr C's site in peace and continue this (if you wish to continue it) by email. GO you my blog URL and use the email adress there.

Like you, I have friends in Isra'el going back three decades; like you, I have strong ties to members of the Zahal. None of them would agree with your comments or your definition of reality - and nor would they countenance the genocide you propose. But, as you pointed out to me earlier, none of this makes for expertise.

This is my last comment here but, as I say, I will willingly continue by email if you wish.

Felix Grant said...

PS: Apologies, Colin - it looks like I'm shouting or challenging in one line of my last post:

"GO you my blog URL"

It was just a typing error ... should have read:

"Go to my blog URL..."

Colin H said...

It is clear that both you guys will never see what is indeed the truth regarding hamas and the palestinians and nothing I say is going to change that. You can both continue on as applogists for terrorists and I am sure you will both sleep well at night. Your statement of Israel being occupiers is wearing thin, They pulled out of gaza some time ago.

I'm finished here.